Monday, December 12, 2011

guys practicing 21 foot rule Tueller drill force on force

Cutting meat with small knives

21 foot rule depending on the gun

This guy is going to depend on his gun to protect himself. If he misses the vitals, he is going to go to the grave with the knife guy. If you both die, no one has won. Do you want to shoot the guy or protect yourself? Which has priority?

Dan Inosanto and the 21 foot rule

This is from "Surviving Edged Weapons" law enforcement only DVD.

21 foot rule myths

Myth 1. You can empty your clip into the knife guy before he can move two steps.
Reality: People don't test well under pressure. They tend to miss more and sometimes freeze, screw up or run for their lives screaming like little boys.

Myth 2. The knife guy will drop like a sack of potatoes when you shoot him.
Reality: Sometimes they drop, sometimes they take multiple hits and act like nothing happened.

Myth 3. Your awareness is so keen no one will ever get that close to you.
Reality: They can get close to you before you have a clue. Distractions can take many forms. There are a lot of variables out there in this big world. Don't count on your awareness. Some people can't even count on having a gun on them.

Myth 4. The knife guy running at you will just run straight whatever you do.
Reality: If you move, don't forget he can move too.

Myth 5.  A gun beats a knife.
Reality: It all depends on where the bullet hits and where the knife or machete hits. If he has a bullet hole in the stomach and your head is detached from your body, did you win? If he is dead and your eyes have been slashed by a knife, did you "win"? Many officers have been severely injured by knives. Don't think your gun is a magic wand.

21 foot rule observations, myths and observations

1. If you shoot the knife guy at less than 21 feet away.. you didn't win; you very likely traded a knife wound for a gun wound.

2. Your ability to stop a charging guy with a knife if you do shoot him depends on where you hit him. Results will vary from him dropping like a sack of potatoes to acting like nothing happened.

3. 21 feet is the beginning of the danger zone if you have a gun and the bad guy has the knife. It is still hard to shoot him and not get hit with the knife at 21 feet if you are more or less ready. If you are not ready, you most likely will receive a knife wound. There is a difference between the Tueller Drill and getting ambushed by someone with a knife.

4. I have seen very good gun guys do the 21 foot rule. They depend too much on their shots to protect themselves. Do you want to shoot the bad guy with the knife or protect yourself from getting stabbed?

5. Try the 21 foot rule using concealment.... it might be different.

6. When you visualize the 21 foot rule, do you visualize a 3.5 inch folding knife or 3 feet of razor sharp sword? It might change things.

7.  The adept will know that the concept of timing is important to surviving in regards to the 21 foot rule.

8. There is the myth that the guy with the knife cannot adjust while running. He can. You move... so can he.

More to come....

Friday, December 2, 2011

Police Chase Ends In Stabbing, Shooting

Do you notice that the officer didn't shoot this guy while he was running at him? The idea of "i'd put 5 bullets in you before you took two steps" is mostly internet posting self delusion.

Tuesday, November 29, 2011

Probe finds deputy's action justified in Kingman shooting

The independent analysis by the office found that Jeff Davis, a deputy with MCSO for 3½ years, was using justifiable self-defense when he shot and killed 30-year-old William Bonnee shortly after midnight on Sept. 4.

Davis was responding to the 3100 block of Thompson after a homeowner called to say that a man wielding a 6-foot long metal pipe had broken into her home after beating her dogs in the backyard and was chasing her and her 15-year-old son.

read more

Saturday, November 19, 2011

Cops shoot another knife brother

For the St. Paul cops who arrived at the Super 8 Motel Monday night, the decision had to be made. 36-year old John Carr was suicidal and high on methamphetamine. In the third floor hallway, four officers shot him to death.

St. Paul Police say Carr was well within what's known as a 21-foot danger zone. Joe Dutton, a retired Golden Valley officer and expert in the use of force, showed FOX 9 how quickly a suspect with a knife can reach an officer. He says officers have less than two seconds to react.

The officers at the Super 8 were in a narrow hallway, which limited their options.

“If you don't have an ability to move laterally, you're very much in a tunnel of death situation here."

Thursday, November 3, 2011

For those that think they can stop someone in their tracks

Expect nothing. It is well documented that people can be shot through vital organs, such as the heart, and still be mobile for 20 to 40 seconds — what has been called “ambulation after death” — causing havoc and death before they finally succumb. The human organism might not be hard to kill, but it is certainly hard to stop quickly.

Wednesday, October 19, 2011

Security Guard Attacked With 10 Inch Knife

Yeah, I guess 'you'd just shoot him' .. there just isn't time when he is closer than 21 feet.

Tuesday, September 27, 2011

With knives, it used to be a 21-foot rule. If someone had a knife and they were within 21 feet of you—and I’ve seen this done in studies with a rubber knife—that person can run at you and get one slice or stab on you before you can draw your weapon and fire accurately. That’s now been increased closer to 30 feet to make it safer for the officers.

Friday, February 4, 2011

Edged Weapon Defense: Is or Was The 21-foot Rule Valid?

As a prelude to more extensive studies of edged-weapon-related issues, the Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato has responded by reexamining the 21-Foot Rule, arguably the most widely taught and commonly remembered element of edged-weapon defense.
After testing the Rule against FSRC’s landmark findings on action-reaction times and conferring with selected members of its National and Technical Advisory Boards, the Center has reached these conclusions, according to Executive Director Dr. Bill Lewinski:
    1. Because of a prevalent misinterpretation, the 21-Foot Rule has been dangerously corrupted. 2. When properly understood, the 21-Foot Rule is still valid in certain limited circumstances. 3. For many officers and situations, a 21-foot reactionary gap is not sufficient. 4. The weapon that officers often think they can depend on to defeat knife attacks can’t be relied upon to protect them in many cases. 5. Training in edged-weapon defense should by no means be abandoned.
Read more-- edged-weapon-defense-is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid?

Related Video
Someone questioned if the rule was still valid, on ice or snow so this video is a response.

Wednesday, January 12, 2011

Tueller Drill and Knives: Myth, Fantasy and Reality

2) The Tueller Drill is an interesting thing. Read more about it here and here. It is also known as the 21 foot rule and that name is probably more accurate. The drill itself isn't so useful, it is the rule that comes from it and the well tested scientific evidence behind it that are useful. Basically the jist is that it takes right about as fast for a guy with a knife to cover 21 feet and presumably shank you as it does for a reasonably trained individual to draw and fire an accurate shot. It really is useful as an educational tool and protection for armed citizens should they face a goblin with an edged or impact weapon. It helped scientifically dispell the lawyer and prosecutor based idea that guns are magical talismans and unless a guy with a knife is 3 feet away you shouldn't be able to defend yourself. In short the 21 foot rule did a lot to break down the myth that guns are some sort of a magical talisman.

Witness blames officers in Modesto shooting....Where have we seen this story before? Why right here

A woman standing about 10 feet from her boyfriend when he was shot by a Modesto police officer last week in their home said Tuesday he never threatened the officers.
"I'm angry as hell. They didn't have to hurt him," she said. "We call the police when we need help. We need cops, but I think they took this situation and handled it wrong."
Brian Reed, a 41-year-old trucker, was shot in his home in the 1800 block of Hagstrom Court on Thursday after police went there to check on his welfare because he was threatening to kill himself.

Wednesday, January 5, 2011

Law enforcement people talking about knives in a forum

Law Enforcement people talking about knives and 21 foot rule

28 Real-World Reasons why a firearm may not be the best response to an edged weapon attack

1. You don’t have a gun.

2. You cannot easily accesses your gun because of clothing or position. (concealed carry, fallen or against a wall)

3. The average attack occurs in less than 2.5 seconds. (21-foot rule)

4. The average human mental reaction time is nearly one second.

5. The average draw to presentation from an open holster takes over 2.5 seconds.

Read more about why a gun doesn't always beat a knife

Monday, January 3, 2011

Sword versus M16s.. The Phillipines, 1967

In the grubby streets of Pasay City, a suburb of Manila, a most unusual group of men gathered last week. They were members of an obscure political sect called Lapiang Malaya (Freedom Movement), and they were armed with long bolo knives and dressed in peculiar blue uniforms with red and yellow capes. At the command of their leader, an old (eightyish) fanatic named Valentin de los Santos, they had come up from their homes in the paddy fields of southern Luzon. Their mission: to march on the presidential palace in Manila and overthrow the government.

Read more:,9171,902050-1,00.html